Post by Mr42 on Sept 19, 2014 20:01:19 GMT
which you can read about here...
discuss42.boards.net/thread/130/idiot-tries-alternative-leeds-music
I HAD to have a say, I apologise to everyone who comes into this thread about the length of the letter (actually I don't but fuck it!), but I'm hoping that people not even from Leeds will get where this comes from. I'm passed caring about worrying about speaking up about things nowadays... so, here goes! If you've got 10 minutes to have a read, I'd hope you agree.
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Re: www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/what-s-on/arts-entertainment/music-and-gigs/music-writer-launches-6k-bid-to-save-leeds-alternative-music-scene-after-cockpit-closure-1-6846004
Hello there,
I read with incredible interest the article posted yesterday of your interview with Jordan Mooney.
I will presume that you've had a lot of feedback about this from the Leeds music community.
First let me apologise for the length of this response, it is explained why at the end. Also can I say, I obviously understand it's not the actual views of the YP / YEP. I worked there for 10 years and have been involved in music news websites for 20 years, I know how the writing of articles and news stories work, but I think 'the other side of the story' definitely needs to be said, acknowledged, posted.
I've been putting on gigs and playing in bands, in Leeds, my home town (I am 37 now), for, well, roughly 21 years. I played my first gig when I was 16, so, the same amount of time that Jordan Mooney, an apparent spokesperson for the current state of the Leeds 'alternative' music scene has been alive. I'm not saying that to be self-important, I'm just saying that to let you know where I'm coming from with this.
I have seen it go from thriving to dying, venues closing (a real stake through the heart was back in the day when The Duchess closed, but, Leeds STILL rebuilt even from that!), new ones opening, dying again because promoters started competing with each other rather than helping each other, then nothing because everyone (including myself) stopped putting anything on. More venues closed, different ones opened, other existing ones utilised backroom spaces, bigger ones arrived, smaller ones did too, to bring us to where we are now, the last year or so, where the Leeds scene is actually in one of the best spells it's been in in a LONG time. It's a HUGE community of people, all actually working WITH each other, rather than against each other, learning from all the mistakes, all the problems, all the really bad times that have gone on over the years. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's getting a lot better.
There is genuinely a MASSIVE scene in Leeds. It is actually well known and well respected all over the world. The DIY scene, underground music scene, overground music scene, all styles, punk, hardcore, metal, extreme stuff, more experimental stuff, indie / rock, all of it, and support for the scene and the way that promoters talk to each other to not split each other's attendances is on the increase too. Many promoters team up anyway, the stuff I've done in recent years has mostly been with a bunch of other promoters, where we pool our resources and experience to putting together decent, honest gigs that are done by music fans for music fans. We have worked together / co-promoted, lent hands to each other's things where we can, and there's a new school of people all doing the same now because of this, they've seen that sort of camaraderie over the last few years, and that's the positive side that's now getting ingrained in the new bunch of people putting on smaller gigs. It's an incredible 'team spirit' I guess you could say.
The next thing I am involved with in November (8th) is at a venue ran by friends (Eiger Music Studios), friends are helping me with promotions, all the bands playing are people that are active in this scene and from towns surrounding, and it is a celebration of all things 'alternative' / metal / unique about our 'scene'. It even celebrates the area being called Yorkshire Riffer. After all this time of me personally putting gigs on, I am vocal about celebrating the great things we have going on around here, especially and even considering what has gone on, the low points a lot of us have had over the years, and saying, 'Do you know what, we're still doing it, we're still able to be involved, because the people here are awesome, the bands here are brilliant, and the venues here are accommodating'.
Band wise it is one of the most thriving places in the world, genuinely. Exciting bands playing all manner of styles, forerunning those styles as well. He talks of some bands not being able to get gigs in this area... they should be doing what all the rest of us have done, put their own gigs on, that's how things grow, that's how more bands and more gigs get noticed. I'm sure some of them have, in all honesty, sometimes bands just have to keep on doing that. Half the promoters in Leeds / the North in general (in fact, just the world underground scene overall) are people from bands, who put their own band on for a few gigs until they get a few contacts and a following, then others put them on or they just keep on doing it themselves. That's how it works. Not someone complaining that bands can't get gigs or that the local scene is dying and then trying to get a load of money off other people because they can't afford or be bothered to take the risk in putting something on. Ticket sales are what pay for gigs, and having confidence in the event you are putting on, otherwise what's the point?
The reason it works so bloody well in Leeds now is that everyone works together to make good gigs have plenty of people there, and then someone like this comes along, who actually knows very little about the grand picture, all the past ups and downs that have been survived through, and then talks like he knows everything, AND is given the press space to belittle and denigrate an entire city's scene that he knows very little about. It's frustrating because now loads of people who have read that will be put off, thinking that the Leeds scene isn't all that good, not flourishing, and that breeds contempt and apathy once again. In saying that people have to go to Sheffield or Manchester to find good alternative gigs, he's potentially steering some people new to the city away from Leeds because they may just think 'Well, it was in the big local newspaper, he seems to know, we'll look elsewhere'. How's THAT for messing up all the efforts of at least 100 promoters in the Leeds area, at least 20+ venues well up for putting on alternative and interesting gigs?!
Half of the comments that have been posted on the news article, friends of mine have posted up, that have also commented in a Facebook thread I made earlier on linking that article, which has had a huge amount of support. This completely proves to me beyond any doubt that the scene here is incredible, because people support each other. People are passionate about what's going on. People have seen how easily a scene can be damaged when things like this happen, so they defend it, vehemently, and quite rightly so. Saying that something is wrong at the wrong time is part of what can kill a scene entirely. Unfortunately I have to say publishing this article without finding out what is actually going on just gives credence to his ill-informed, naive ways.
Regarding venues, even though I'd not been to the Cockpit much for at least five years, (not much there for my personal tastes), there has been some awesome things go on there, I've personally played a few gigs there, put on nights there, and, obviously it's a shame when any venue goes down, but it's not 'the end of the music scene in Leeds' as his blinkered hype to help his own venture would have you or anyone else believe. Either way another venue exists to keep most of the half decent things from the Cockpit going, so the alternative scene isn't losing that much in reality. Some of the people involved in the gigs down there have already re-opened up an older venue, now called The Key Club (used to be Bassment and then Subculture), a great spot for all things 'alternative' (I hate that phrase, but will use it since it's the phrasing that has been used already). He clearly doesn't know where to look to find the 'alternative scene' if he thinks that The Cockpit was all there is!
There are also tons of awesome venues in Leeds, all willing to fill their calendar, most of which you can book, get a sound guy for, get flyers done for less than £75, some £100! The Fox and Newt, The Packhorse, The Fenton, The Brudenell Social Club, The Library, the quite recently opened Temple of Boom (two rooms), Wharf Chambers, Santiagos, also quite recently opened Belgrave Music Hall, Carpe Diem, Eiger Music Studios, Vox Warehouse, Bad Apples (not been but good things are happening there), now The Key Club which sounds like an exciting venture and more. All these places currently exist and great things are happening there all the time. Most of the gigs that I've been to or had involvement with playing or helping with in the last year or so have had great turn outs, certainly better than they might have had a few years back when the city was definitely suffering.
All he would have to do is go onto the Leeds Gig Guide at www.leedsgigs.co.uk or spend a day really looking at the Leeds Music Scene website at www.leedsmusicscene.net and see just how much is happening there, how many venues there are willing to put on bands of all sizes and styles, yet I would hazard a guess that he hasn't heard of half these venues, or taken the time to find out about them, never mind go out and find how much, how little they'd cost to house his gigs. I don't believe for a second that putting on a gig that would probably be more suited to and more beneficial in the 150 capacity Library, or 250/300 capacity Eiger, rather than in the o2 Academy!
How does holding an apparent underground event for lesser known bands / acts like this in a corporate venue save the alternative music scene in Leeds, which, without any doubt in my mind, and a whole bunch of other people that are right slap bang in the middle of the scene's minds, is in one of the best phases it's been in for a long time. Certainly it's nowhere bad enough to warrant using it as a springboard for their own campaign, which essentially is what this seems like. I know it was already in motion before the closing of the Cockpit, but it just seems like a fairly ideal thing to jump on, to push their own cause. I've seen that their Kickstarter campaign has been cancelled. To be honest, that wasn't even really my issue with the whole affair, but what was an issue is that, in the end due to a badly thought out angle to take things, he's ended up pretty much slating everyone involved in this scene, all the promoters, all the venues, and all the hard work that has been done whilst he didn't even know the music scene existed. The other issue is the fact that, I hate to say, the Post lent him the facility to voice those opinions that were completely incorrect, unfounded, damaging and enraging to all the people involved.
A friend of mine messaged him direct on Facebook, and he replied saying that the Post has misquoted him and taken some of the phone conversation in the wrong way, saying that "the exact comments were that the scene isn't growing anywhere near as fast as the city is, and that we wanted to try and add something to what was already there."
I don't doubt that his intentions were all well founded, and, I actually in part agree, considering the size of Leeds, there isn't the amount of venues that there COULD be, but there is definitely enough. An event and an article like this won't 'resurrect' the local scene though, in fact it opens up even more problems, and highlighting negative parts at the wrong time is incredibly detrimental, especially at a time with the new influx of students to the city.
Also, having read through a lot of his website, he also says "Leeds is infamous for a bad scene amongst independent performers, promoters and fans alike. There’s few decent small venues. Those that are there are impossible to book with unless you’ve shifted thousands of records, have a smart booking agent or opening for a much larger group. There’s a bizarre arrogance in the very make up of the city’s musical side." This contradicts his 'misquoted' phrase. What I don't understand is why you're lending press space to someone who is instantly capable of back pedalling, and I think your research is sadly lacking in this instance. Be that as it may, yes, Leeds HAS had problems in the past, but as mentioned, a lot of years of work have been put in and a lot of people have been doing that work to steer it away from those problems, and now it's a completely different place because of it. He is definitely trying to book the wrong venues.
The combination of all these things occurring though now kind of makes a mockery of all the really, REALLY hard work that a LOT of people have been doing over the past few years to actually properly (already) resurrect the Leeds / Yorkshire music scene, which has suffered some almost fatal blows, with even more integral venues going previously (The Well was a massive one), more mainstay promoters calling it a day, lack of communication between people and competition between promoters. Most of these problems have been wiped out, through conscious efforts of a whole massive group of people who have actually been involved in the scene for 5-10-15-20 years, and for someone to come along and be given the pedestal to almost blow all of this hard work out of the water is a massive kick in the teeth for a lot of people, and something that shouldn't happened in the first place.
I apologise for the length of this response / email, but, this needed saying, and things needed putting right. When I first saw this article, I was incredibly annoyed, partly because of a long term involvement with Leeds music (not saying I'm more involved than anyone else, or anything like that, but I've witnessed a lot of things go on that shouldn't have), but, then, after seeing the amount of annoyance that a huge group of people felt from it as well, I realised I wasn't alone in this, and articles like that cannot be left out there for people to read and possibly agree with. It's wrong. It's as simple as that. It's absolutely wrong, and it is harmful to this scene.
The reason I am SO protective over it, is because it IS one of the best in the world, and music is a huge lifeline to a massive core of the city. It is actually one of the best things about Leeds as a whole city, it has been for a long time. I know a lot of musically passionate people, in fact, I'd say completely obsessed people, including myself, for whom music is their main outlet, their main joy, their main escape, and when someone insults it, everyone pounces on it, as I've seen today with the responses from a massive amount of friends.
I hope you find a way to redress the balance here, because this has been spread a long way, and people I know from all over the UK and further have seen this. Anyone in ANY area knows the important of 'the local music scene', for the community it breeds, for the friendships it brings, and for the joy it helps us have, and, if someone says something is wrong and needs fixing when it DOES, all well and good, but to say that at a time when it's been so fragile and so broken in the past, and now it's massively rebuilt is just complete idiocy and potentially damaging to us all. He, and you need to be careful when saying and printing negative things about something that is at the very foundation of a city. Without 'our scene', a huge percentage of this city would not be the same.
Thanks if you read this,
Paul Priest.
discuss42.boards.net/thread/130/idiot-tries-alternative-leeds-music
I HAD to have a say, I apologise to everyone who comes into this thread about the length of the letter (actually I don't but fuck it!), but I'm hoping that people not even from Leeds will get where this comes from. I'm passed caring about worrying about speaking up about things nowadays... so, here goes! If you've got 10 minutes to have a read, I'd hope you agree.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re: www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/what-s-on/arts-entertainment/music-and-gigs/music-writer-launches-6k-bid-to-save-leeds-alternative-music-scene-after-cockpit-closure-1-6846004
Hello there,
I read with incredible interest the article posted yesterday of your interview with Jordan Mooney.
I will presume that you've had a lot of feedback about this from the Leeds music community.
First let me apologise for the length of this response, it is explained why at the end. Also can I say, I obviously understand it's not the actual views of the YP / YEP. I worked there for 10 years and have been involved in music news websites for 20 years, I know how the writing of articles and news stories work, but I think 'the other side of the story' definitely needs to be said, acknowledged, posted.
I've been putting on gigs and playing in bands, in Leeds, my home town (I am 37 now), for, well, roughly 21 years. I played my first gig when I was 16, so, the same amount of time that Jordan Mooney, an apparent spokesperson for the current state of the Leeds 'alternative' music scene has been alive. I'm not saying that to be self-important, I'm just saying that to let you know where I'm coming from with this.
I have seen it go from thriving to dying, venues closing (a real stake through the heart was back in the day when The Duchess closed, but, Leeds STILL rebuilt even from that!), new ones opening, dying again because promoters started competing with each other rather than helping each other, then nothing because everyone (including myself) stopped putting anything on. More venues closed, different ones opened, other existing ones utilised backroom spaces, bigger ones arrived, smaller ones did too, to bring us to where we are now, the last year or so, where the Leeds scene is actually in one of the best spells it's been in in a LONG time. It's a HUGE community of people, all actually working WITH each other, rather than against each other, learning from all the mistakes, all the problems, all the really bad times that have gone on over the years. I'm not saying it's perfect, but it's getting a lot better.
There is genuinely a MASSIVE scene in Leeds. It is actually well known and well respected all over the world. The DIY scene, underground music scene, overground music scene, all styles, punk, hardcore, metal, extreme stuff, more experimental stuff, indie / rock, all of it, and support for the scene and the way that promoters talk to each other to not split each other's attendances is on the increase too. Many promoters team up anyway, the stuff I've done in recent years has mostly been with a bunch of other promoters, where we pool our resources and experience to putting together decent, honest gigs that are done by music fans for music fans. We have worked together / co-promoted, lent hands to each other's things where we can, and there's a new school of people all doing the same now because of this, they've seen that sort of camaraderie over the last few years, and that's the positive side that's now getting ingrained in the new bunch of people putting on smaller gigs. It's an incredible 'team spirit' I guess you could say.
The next thing I am involved with in November (8th) is at a venue ran by friends (Eiger Music Studios), friends are helping me with promotions, all the bands playing are people that are active in this scene and from towns surrounding, and it is a celebration of all things 'alternative' / metal / unique about our 'scene'. It even celebrates the area being called Yorkshire Riffer. After all this time of me personally putting gigs on, I am vocal about celebrating the great things we have going on around here, especially and even considering what has gone on, the low points a lot of us have had over the years, and saying, 'Do you know what, we're still doing it, we're still able to be involved, because the people here are awesome, the bands here are brilliant, and the venues here are accommodating'.
Band wise it is one of the most thriving places in the world, genuinely. Exciting bands playing all manner of styles, forerunning those styles as well. He talks of some bands not being able to get gigs in this area... they should be doing what all the rest of us have done, put their own gigs on, that's how things grow, that's how more bands and more gigs get noticed. I'm sure some of them have, in all honesty, sometimes bands just have to keep on doing that. Half the promoters in Leeds / the North in general (in fact, just the world underground scene overall) are people from bands, who put their own band on for a few gigs until they get a few contacts and a following, then others put them on or they just keep on doing it themselves. That's how it works. Not someone complaining that bands can't get gigs or that the local scene is dying and then trying to get a load of money off other people because they can't afford or be bothered to take the risk in putting something on. Ticket sales are what pay for gigs, and having confidence in the event you are putting on, otherwise what's the point?
The reason it works so bloody well in Leeds now is that everyone works together to make good gigs have plenty of people there, and then someone like this comes along, who actually knows very little about the grand picture, all the past ups and downs that have been survived through, and then talks like he knows everything, AND is given the press space to belittle and denigrate an entire city's scene that he knows very little about. It's frustrating because now loads of people who have read that will be put off, thinking that the Leeds scene isn't all that good, not flourishing, and that breeds contempt and apathy once again. In saying that people have to go to Sheffield or Manchester to find good alternative gigs, he's potentially steering some people new to the city away from Leeds because they may just think 'Well, it was in the big local newspaper, he seems to know, we'll look elsewhere'. How's THAT for messing up all the efforts of at least 100 promoters in the Leeds area, at least 20+ venues well up for putting on alternative and interesting gigs?!
Half of the comments that have been posted on the news article, friends of mine have posted up, that have also commented in a Facebook thread I made earlier on linking that article, which has had a huge amount of support. This completely proves to me beyond any doubt that the scene here is incredible, because people support each other. People are passionate about what's going on. People have seen how easily a scene can be damaged when things like this happen, so they defend it, vehemently, and quite rightly so. Saying that something is wrong at the wrong time is part of what can kill a scene entirely. Unfortunately I have to say publishing this article without finding out what is actually going on just gives credence to his ill-informed, naive ways.
Regarding venues, even though I'd not been to the Cockpit much for at least five years, (not much there for my personal tastes), there has been some awesome things go on there, I've personally played a few gigs there, put on nights there, and, obviously it's a shame when any venue goes down, but it's not 'the end of the music scene in Leeds' as his blinkered hype to help his own venture would have you or anyone else believe. Either way another venue exists to keep most of the half decent things from the Cockpit going, so the alternative scene isn't losing that much in reality. Some of the people involved in the gigs down there have already re-opened up an older venue, now called The Key Club (used to be Bassment and then Subculture), a great spot for all things 'alternative' (I hate that phrase, but will use it since it's the phrasing that has been used already). He clearly doesn't know where to look to find the 'alternative scene' if he thinks that The Cockpit was all there is!
There are also tons of awesome venues in Leeds, all willing to fill their calendar, most of which you can book, get a sound guy for, get flyers done for less than £75, some £100! The Fox and Newt, The Packhorse, The Fenton, The Brudenell Social Club, The Library, the quite recently opened Temple of Boom (two rooms), Wharf Chambers, Santiagos, also quite recently opened Belgrave Music Hall, Carpe Diem, Eiger Music Studios, Vox Warehouse, Bad Apples (not been but good things are happening there), now The Key Club which sounds like an exciting venture and more. All these places currently exist and great things are happening there all the time. Most of the gigs that I've been to or had involvement with playing or helping with in the last year or so have had great turn outs, certainly better than they might have had a few years back when the city was definitely suffering.
All he would have to do is go onto the Leeds Gig Guide at www.leedsgigs.co.uk or spend a day really looking at the Leeds Music Scene website at www.leedsmusicscene.net and see just how much is happening there, how many venues there are willing to put on bands of all sizes and styles, yet I would hazard a guess that he hasn't heard of half these venues, or taken the time to find out about them, never mind go out and find how much, how little they'd cost to house his gigs. I don't believe for a second that putting on a gig that would probably be more suited to and more beneficial in the 150 capacity Library, or 250/300 capacity Eiger, rather than in the o2 Academy!
How does holding an apparent underground event for lesser known bands / acts like this in a corporate venue save the alternative music scene in Leeds, which, without any doubt in my mind, and a whole bunch of other people that are right slap bang in the middle of the scene's minds, is in one of the best phases it's been in for a long time. Certainly it's nowhere bad enough to warrant using it as a springboard for their own campaign, which essentially is what this seems like. I know it was already in motion before the closing of the Cockpit, but it just seems like a fairly ideal thing to jump on, to push their own cause. I've seen that their Kickstarter campaign has been cancelled. To be honest, that wasn't even really my issue with the whole affair, but what was an issue is that, in the end due to a badly thought out angle to take things, he's ended up pretty much slating everyone involved in this scene, all the promoters, all the venues, and all the hard work that has been done whilst he didn't even know the music scene existed. The other issue is the fact that, I hate to say, the Post lent him the facility to voice those opinions that were completely incorrect, unfounded, damaging and enraging to all the people involved.
A friend of mine messaged him direct on Facebook, and he replied saying that the Post has misquoted him and taken some of the phone conversation in the wrong way, saying that "the exact comments were that the scene isn't growing anywhere near as fast as the city is, and that we wanted to try and add something to what was already there."
I don't doubt that his intentions were all well founded, and, I actually in part agree, considering the size of Leeds, there isn't the amount of venues that there COULD be, but there is definitely enough. An event and an article like this won't 'resurrect' the local scene though, in fact it opens up even more problems, and highlighting negative parts at the wrong time is incredibly detrimental, especially at a time with the new influx of students to the city.
Also, having read through a lot of his website, he also says "Leeds is infamous for a bad scene amongst independent performers, promoters and fans alike. There’s few decent small venues. Those that are there are impossible to book with unless you’ve shifted thousands of records, have a smart booking agent or opening for a much larger group. There’s a bizarre arrogance in the very make up of the city’s musical side." This contradicts his 'misquoted' phrase. What I don't understand is why you're lending press space to someone who is instantly capable of back pedalling, and I think your research is sadly lacking in this instance. Be that as it may, yes, Leeds HAS had problems in the past, but as mentioned, a lot of years of work have been put in and a lot of people have been doing that work to steer it away from those problems, and now it's a completely different place because of it. He is definitely trying to book the wrong venues.
The combination of all these things occurring though now kind of makes a mockery of all the really, REALLY hard work that a LOT of people have been doing over the past few years to actually properly (already) resurrect the Leeds / Yorkshire music scene, which has suffered some almost fatal blows, with even more integral venues going previously (The Well was a massive one), more mainstay promoters calling it a day, lack of communication between people and competition between promoters. Most of these problems have been wiped out, through conscious efforts of a whole massive group of people who have actually been involved in the scene for 5-10-15-20 years, and for someone to come along and be given the pedestal to almost blow all of this hard work out of the water is a massive kick in the teeth for a lot of people, and something that shouldn't happened in the first place.
I apologise for the length of this response / email, but, this needed saying, and things needed putting right. When I first saw this article, I was incredibly annoyed, partly because of a long term involvement with Leeds music (not saying I'm more involved than anyone else, or anything like that, but I've witnessed a lot of things go on that shouldn't have), but, then, after seeing the amount of annoyance that a huge group of people felt from it as well, I realised I wasn't alone in this, and articles like that cannot be left out there for people to read and possibly agree with. It's wrong. It's as simple as that. It's absolutely wrong, and it is harmful to this scene.
The reason I am SO protective over it, is because it IS one of the best in the world, and music is a huge lifeline to a massive core of the city. It is actually one of the best things about Leeds as a whole city, it has been for a long time. I know a lot of musically passionate people, in fact, I'd say completely obsessed people, including myself, for whom music is their main outlet, their main joy, their main escape, and when someone insults it, everyone pounces on it, as I've seen today with the responses from a massive amount of friends.
I hope you find a way to redress the balance here, because this has been spread a long way, and people I know from all over the UK and further have seen this. Anyone in ANY area knows the important of 'the local music scene', for the community it breeds, for the friendships it brings, and for the joy it helps us have, and, if someone says something is wrong and needs fixing when it DOES, all well and good, but to say that at a time when it's been so fragile and so broken in the past, and now it's massively rebuilt is just complete idiocy and potentially damaging to us all. He, and you need to be careful when saying and printing negative things about something that is at the very foundation of a city. Without 'our scene', a huge percentage of this city would not be the same.
Thanks if you read this,
Paul Priest.